Tripod Interview: Tim Cahill

Living & Travel Interview
Tim Cahill

interviewed by Mike Agger on June 27, 1996

"I often wonder if our desire to see genuine hunters and gatherers, who have no idea what a T-shirt is, much less Batman, is a new form of cultural imperialism."

Listen to Tim Cahill in Real Audio. If you haven't downloaded the free Real Audio 2.0 player yet, hurry on over to Progressive Networks and hear what you've been missing.
Listen to why:
Superman would not make a good adventure travel writer
Visiting remote places can be an "alienating" experience
Bombenjale pygmies think all Americans named Michael have the surname "Jackson"
Tim Cahill is an editor at "Outside Magazine," and the author of a number of adventure travel books, including "Jaguars Ripped My Flesh" and "A Wolverine is Eating My Leg." Tripod caught up with him at his Montana cabin to learn how he developed a career that involves falling down cliffs, and then telling stories about it.

Tripod: Let me start by saying that I think you have one of the best jobs in the world. How did you become Tim Cahill, adventure travel writer?
Tim Cahill: When we were talking about including adventure travel writing in Outside magazine, I argued that it doesn't really work to put Superman in a dangerous situation because he can leap tall buildings in a single bound and deflect bullets. I said, "Why don't we use someone who is not physically courageous, and not always wonderfully coordinated? Why don't we use someone who can write a coherent sentence, and is easily frightened?" And the other editors said, "Why don't you do it?"

Tripod: How do you pick your adventures?
TC: I've discovered that it is best to have a quest of some kind. We are all lazy and tend to fall into the easy way to travel: tourist hotels and tour groups. It is best to have something that you must do in a country, even if it is looking up a long lost second cousin of your uncle's great aunt. The quest will get you out of the normal travel routes and help you meet people.
Tripod: In "Jaguars Ripped My Flesh," you visit Thursday Island on the northern tip of Australia and discuss how the islanders stare at their televisions sets even though the signal has not arrived yet. The piece is partly an elegy for the loss of cultural distinctness that will occur when television arrives. Do you find that technology has flattened cultural difference throughout the world?
TC: What I am finding more and more, especially in the last twenty years, is that mass market Western culture is everywhere. I was in the swamps of the Northern Congo, and I visited a little town of about two hundred people, where I met some Bombenjale pygmies. They are still hunters and gatherers. They live in improvised shelters made of sticks a few months of the year and spend the rest of the time out hunting in the jungle. They do have short-wave radios. The person with me was a scientist named Michael Fay and the pygmies kept calling him Jackson. And I finally said, "Michael, why are they calling you Jackson?" He said: "Because the only other American they have ever heard of named Michael is Michael Jackson."

"What I am finding more and more, especially in the last twenty years, is that mass market Western culture is everywhere."

Tripod: Yikes!
TC: Also, missionaries visit these remote places. When you get there you find that the natives are wearing clothing drive items, cast off Batman and Ninja turtle T-shirts. You think you are traveling back to the Stone Age, but what you finally get to see is...

Tripod: What America was wearing five years ago.
TC: Yes, exactly. It's too bad. I often wonder if our desire to see genuine hunters and gatherers, who have no idea what a T-shirt is, much less Batman, is a new form of cultural imperialism. I've thought to myself: what if a spaceship landed with the cure for cancer and other modern ills, but these aliens did not want us to have this knowledge because they took spiritual guidance from watching us cope with this problems? If that happened, would I say, "We should continue to battle these problems on our own," or would I do everything in my power to obtain that knowledge? This is analogous to how I feel when traveling to these remote places. There is a desire to see people living in the Congo Basin in communion with the forest the way they always have, but on the other hand, you seldom see any grandfathers or grandmothers. Life expectancy is very low, somewhere around fifty years. Is it wrong for those people to seek the benefits of the technology we have? Those are questions I often ask myself.

"Typically, these primitive people want to make a giant step into western technological culture, and they throw away their own culture in the process."

Tripod: When you meet these native, primitive, people, what do you feel is your role in helping to improve their lives?
TC: My job is to report what I see with complete accuracy. For example, the Marquesas Islands are the most remote island group on the earth, the farthest from any continent. The people there are Polynesian. They were cannibals up until the 1920s. A German archeologist visited the island in the 1890s and did sketches of their carvings and wrote about their tribal society. When I visited these islands, there were Marquesan people rediscovering their culture through the books of this German archeologist.

Someday, people will read my books in this way, especially if some of the cultures I write about make rapid changes. Typically, these primitive people want to make a giant step into Western technological culture, and they throw away their own culture in the process. Their sons and granddaughters will try to rediscover it, and some of that original culture will be preserved between the covers of the books that I write.

Tripod: What is the most indispensable piece of equipment someone should bring on their travels?

TC: I always carry a compass, a short-wave radio, and a book. Reading material is nice for those times spent waiting around for permits for three days. I suppose though, that since you must eat no matter where you are, the most essential item to carry with you is a bottle of Tabasco sauce.

Tripod: You also seem to carry a large sense of humor. I found your ability to laugh at yourself refreshing.
TC: Yes, one of the offshoots of my writing is that I am in the permission-giving business. I give people their dreams. I imagine somebody reading my book, saying, "You know, I've always wanted to do this trip down the Amazon, if this clown Cahill can do it, so can I."

Tripod: What do you tell people when they ask you how they can experience some kinds of the travel experiences that you have had?

TC: There are many, many adventure travel outfitters that go to all parts of the world. The trips also have varying levels of physical difficulty. If you are a novice traveler, an outfitter will help you to learn the ins and outs of getting through customs and the proper etiquette for dealing with native people. You also learn that in different parts of the world you should not expect things to go smoothly. If you complain about delay, you're likely to not get anywhere. For a first adventure, think seriously about a company, and then after you learn the basics, you can begin to plan your own trips.

"What always happens in the midst of this crowd is that some of the older teenagers, especially if you do not speak the language, will begin making fun of you."
Tripod: You have visited remote and primitive places all over the world. Is there a similarity between these places? Is there some sort of sign that lets you know that you are now far from the reaches of civilization?
TC: I find that when you walk into a village where they are not used to strangers, especially Westerners, the same thing happens all the time. This includes African pygmy villages, Siberian Chukchi villages, and Kitcha villages in the high Andes. First come the children, and you laugh and talk with them. Next, come the older teenagers. Generally, women will stay in the background. Soon, some of the village elders will appear, and those are the people to whom you should give proper respect. Eventually, everyone will come out and surround you. What always happens in the midst of this crowd is that some of the older teenagers, especially if you do not speak the language, will begin making fun of you. Your immediate response is to reply in kind in English. Instead, you should feign ignorance and laugh along with them in a slightly bewildered way. Look towards the village elders as if to say "Please explain what they are trying to say?" Soon the village elders will calm the teenagers down and you can start making friends.

Tripod: Do you find that when you get close to these native people there is a common question they ask about you?
TC: Yes. Unfortunately, the question you hear a lot is similar to: "Those are nice boots, how much do they cost?" One of the few places where that doesn't happen is in the mountains of Bali. When they see your blue jeans, they say "why would anyone want to wear that?" They are not interested in your culture. Once I made friends with them they said, "Why don't you come live in our village? Why do you want to go back to America?"

"I have discovered that if you can keep that child-like state of wonder, that sense of idealism wherever you go, no place will be lost on you, no place will be uninteresting." Tripod: Traveling so often to so many places, how do you keep from becoming jaded?
TC: There is a negative connotation to the word adolescent in our culture, but I have discovered that if you can keep that child-like state of wonder, that sense of idealism wherever you go, no place will be lost on you, no place will be uninteresting.
Tripod: What is the ultimate reward of all these adventures besides simply saying "Been there, done that"?
TC: Hopefully, you achieve some understanding of what makes human beings similar and what makes them different. You learn to appreciate other cultures. There is this horrible story of British shipboard expeditions looking for the Northwest Passage. Their ships get caught in the ice and the British sailors try to survive according to their civilized ways. If they had simply looked at how the Intuit lived, and copied the methods they used to survive, the English might have made it through their winter ordeal alive. You learn quickly that when you meet a culture in a remote area you should watch carefully what they do to live and how they do it. You should respect the local people, because to some degree your life is at stake.

Tripod: So, the ultimate reward is being able to meet people radically different from oneself?

TC: Yes, and to what degree I am spiritual I think my sacraments can be found in the forests, in the deserts, in the mountains, on the seas, and on the rivers, those are the things that make my spirit soar.

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Tim Cahill interviewed by Mike Agger on June 27, 1996	"I often wonder if our desire to see genuine hunters and gatherers, who have no idea what a T-shirt is, much less Batman, is a new form of cultural imperialism."

Listen to Tim Cahill in Real Audio. If you haven't downloaded the free Real Audio 2.0 player yet, hurry on over to Progressive Networks and hear what you've been missing. Listen to why: Superman would not make a good adventure travel writer Visiting remote places can be an "alienating" experience Bombenjale pygmies think all Americans named Michael have the surname "Jackson"	Tim Cahill is an editor at "Outside Magazine," and the author of a number of adventure travel books, including "Jaguars Ripped My Flesh" and "A Wolverine is Eating My Leg." Tripod caught up with him at his Montana cabin to learn how he developed a career that involves falling down cliffs, and then telling stories about it. Tripod: Let me start by saying that I think you have one of the best jobs in the world. How did you become Tim Cahill, adventure travel writer? Tim Cahill: When we were talking about including adventure travel writing in Outside magazine, I argued that it doesn't really work to put Superman in a dangerous situation because he can leap tall buildings in a single bound and deflect bullets. I said, "Why don't we use someone who is not physically courageous, and not always wonderfully coordinated? Why don't we use someone who can write a coherent sentence, and is easily frightened?" And the other editors said, "Why don't you do it?" Tripod: How do you pick your adventures? TC: I've discovered that it is best to have a quest of some kind. We are all lazy and tend to fall into the easy way to travel: tourist hotels and tour groups. It is best to have something that you must do in a country, even if it is looking up a long lost second cousin of your uncle's great aunt. The quest will get you out of the normal travel routes and help you meet people. Tripod: In "Jaguars Ripped My Flesh," you visit Thursday Island on the northern tip of Australia and discuss how the islanders stare at their televisions sets even though the signal has not arrived yet. The piece is partly an elegy for the loss of cultural distinctness that will occur when television arrives. Do you find that technology has flattened cultural difference throughout the world? TC: What I am finding more and more, especially in the last twenty years, is that mass market Western culture is everywhere. I was in the swamps of the Northern Congo, and I visited a little town of about two hundred people, where I met some Bombenjale pygmies. They are still hunters and gatherers. They live in improvised shelters made of sticks a few months of the year and spend the rest of the time out hunting in the jungle. They do have short-wave radios. The person with me was a scientist named Michael Fay and the pygmies kept calling him Jackson. And I finally said, "Michael, why are they calling you Jackson?" He said: "Because the only other American they have ever heard of named Michael is Michael Jackson."
"What I am finding more and more, especially in the last twenty years, is that mass market Western culture is everywhere."	Tripod: Yikes! TC: Also, missionaries visit these remote places. When you get there you find that the natives are wearing clothing drive items, cast off Batman and Ninja turtle T-shirts. You think you are traveling back to the Stone Age, but what you finally get to see is... Tripod: What America was wearing five years ago. TC: Yes, exactly. It's too bad. I often wonder if our desire to see genuine hunters and gatherers, who have no idea what a T-shirt is, much less Batman, is a new form of cultural imperialism. I've thought to myself: what if a spaceship landed with the cure for cancer and other modern ills, but these aliens did not want us to have this knowledge because they took spiritual guidance from watching us cope with this problems? If that happened, would I say, "We should continue to battle these problems on our own," or would I do everything in my power to obtain that knowledge? This is analogous to how I feel when traveling to these remote places. There is a desire to see people living in the Congo Basin in communion with the forest the way they always have, but on the other hand, you seldom see any grandfathers or grandmothers. Life expectancy is very low, somewhere around fifty years. Is it wrong for those people to seek the benefits of the technology we have? Those are questions I often ask myself.
"Typically, these primitive people want to make a giant step into western technological culture, and they throw away their own culture in the process."	Tripod: When you meet these native, primitive, people, what do you feel is your role in helping to improve their lives? TC: My job is to report what I see with complete accuracy. For example, the Marquesas Islands are the most remote island group on the earth, the farthest from any continent. The people there are Polynesian. They were cannibals up until the 1920s. A German archeologist visited the island in the 1890s and did sketches of their carvings and wrote about their tribal society. When I visited these islands, there were Marquesan people rediscovering their culture through the books of this German archeologist. Someday, people will read my books in this way, especially if some of the cultures I write about make rapid changes. Typically, these primitive people want to make a giant step into Western technological culture, and they throw away their own culture in the process. Their sons and granddaughters will try to rediscover it, and some of that original culture will be preserved between the covers of the books that I write. Tripod: What is the most indispensable piece of equipment someone should bring on their travels? TC: I always carry a compass, a short-wave radio, and a book. Reading material is nice for those times spent waiting around for permits for three days. I suppose though, that since you must eat no matter where you are, the most essential item to carry with you is a bottle of Tabasco sauce. Tripod: You also seem to carry a large sense of humor. I found your ability to laugh at yourself refreshing. TC: Yes, one of the offshoots of my writing is that I am in the permission-giving business. I give people their dreams. I imagine somebody reading my book, saying, "You know, I've always wanted to do this trip down the Amazon, if this clown Cahill can do it, so can I." Tripod: What do you tell people when they ask you how they can experience some kinds of the travel experiences that you have had? TC: There are many, many adventure travel outfitters that go to all parts of the world. The trips also have varying levels of physical difficulty. If you are a novice traveler, an outfitter will help you to learn the ins and outs of getting through customs and the proper etiquette for dealing with native people. You also learn that in different parts of the world you should not expect things to go smoothly. If you complain about delay, you're likely to not get anywhere. For a first adventure, think seriously about a company, and then after you learn the basics, you can begin to plan your own trips.
"What always happens in the midst of this crowd is that some of the older teenagers, especially if you do not speak the language, will begin making fun of you."	Tripod: You have visited remote and primitive places all over the world. Is there a similarity between these places? Is there some sort of sign that lets you know that you are now far from the reaches of civilization? TC: I find that when you walk into a village where they are not used to strangers, especially Westerners, the same thing happens all the time. This includes African pygmy villages, Siberian Chukchi villages, and Kitcha villages in the high Andes. First come the children, and you laugh and talk with them. Next, come the older teenagers. Generally, women will stay in the background. Soon, some of the village elders will appear, and those are the people to whom you should give proper respect. Eventually, everyone will come out and surround you. What always happens in the midst of this crowd is that some of the older teenagers, especially if you do not speak the language, will begin making fun of you. Your immediate response is to reply in kind in English. Instead, you should feign ignorance and laugh along with them in a slightly bewildered way. Look towards the village elders as if to say "Please explain what they are trying to say?" Soon the village elders will calm the teenagers down and you can start making friends. Tripod: Do you find that when you get close to these native people there is a common question they ask about you? TC: Yes. Unfortunately, the question you hear a lot is similar to: "Those are nice boots, how much do they cost?" One of the few places where that doesn't happen is in the mountains of Bali. When they see your blue jeans, they say "why would anyone want to wear that?" They are not interested in your culture. Once I made friends with them they said, "Why don't you come live in our village? Why do you want to go back to America?"
"I have discovered that if you can keep that child-like state of wonder, that sense of idealism wherever you go, no place will be lost on you, no place will be uninteresting."	Tripod: Traveling so often to so many places, how do you keep from becoming jaded? TC: There is a negative connotation to the word adolescent in our culture, but I have discovered that if you can keep that child-like state of wonder, that sense of idealism wherever you go, no place will be lost on you, no place will be uninteresting. Tripod: What is the ultimate reward of all these adventures besides simply saying "Been there, done that"? TC: Hopefully, you achieve some understanding of what makes human beings similar and what makes them different. You learn to appreciate other cultures. There is this horrible story of British shipboard expeditions looking for the Northwest Passage. Their ships get caught in the ice and the British sailors try to survive according to their civilized ways. If they had simply looked at how the Intuit lived, and copied the methods they used to survive, the English might have made it through their winter ordeal alive. You learn quickly that when you meet a culture in a remote area you should watch carefully what they do to live and how they do it. You should respect the local people, because to some degree your life is at stake. Tripod: So, the ultimate reward is being able to meet people radically different from oneself? TC: Yes, and to what degree I am spiritual I think my sacraments can be found in the forests, in the deserts, in the mountains, on the seas, and on the rivers, those are the things that make my spirit soar.