POLITICS & COMMUNITY

03/28/96-04/03/96: How Should We Treat the Montana Freemen?

The Montana Freemen are holed up on a farm surrounded by FBI agents and other authorities. The Freemen claim that the United States government is not legitimate and they refuse to pay taxes (among other violations). The FBI is keeping a low-profile to avoid a repeat of the Waco incident. How should they handle the incident? If you're not from the United States, what would you do if citizens of your country claimed that the government wasn't legitimate? Isn't this the way the United States began? Are they following in the footsteps of the founding fathers?

mabourn: I think the FBI should do what they can to avoid loss of life. That does not include allowing the Freemen to get away with what ever crimes they might have committed. For a democratic society to function, citizens must conform to certain basic rules of conduct. In other words in exercising your rights you can not infringe on the rights of others. Free citizens also owe a certain obligation to society. It has been said that with freedom comes responsibility. It would appear that the Montana Freemen have lost sight of this. I suspect that the Freemen frequently drive on the roads of Montana but they feel no need to pay taxes to maintain those roads. If a foreign power were to invade the United States, the Freemen would expect the protection of the U.S. Military. If one of the Freemen entered into a contract and the other party breached their obligation, I suspect the Freemen would expect the protection of the courts of the United States.

Wayne_Foundation: Ultimately, the "Free Men" and other domestic terrorists will sacrifice their own freedom and possibly jeopardize everyone else's. Thanks to media senstaionalism, an increasingly fearful public is willing to hand over its freedom to the goverment in exchange for better protection from wacko terrorists like these guys. By threatening violence and waving guns, the Free Men are playing right into the hands of an increasingly restrictive and opressive government. Every new law that is passed to protect us is another choke chain on our basic freedoms. All it will take is a few more groups like the Free Men and the right to keep and bear arms will be eagerly tossed away by a fearful voting public. Freedom from illegal search and seizure is already slipping away thanks to a terrified populace that looks to the goverment instead of itself for protection. I only hope that people will see what is happening before it is too late.

Norskyboy: I'm from Montana (Potomac) and these nuts in Jordan have a right to defend their rights but taking efforts to such extremes is a waste of time. Do they understand their right to vote people into office that will help their cause? Simple highschool government classes understand that.

ctipton: By their name I assume that they think they have a lock on being free, but the rest of us in the United States are not. What are they "free" from? Does this mean that I am oppressed? For any society to operate within some level of acceptance, there has to be an agreement on what the rules are. I don't like taxes either - but without them the government will cease to operate, and that is not a good thing. Actually I think these folks are just another bunch of wahoo's who have been out in the snow too long!

Dickj: These are not gentlemen! Gentlemen do not sit around with holsters slung. Gentlemen do not refuse to talk openly when there is confrontation. Gentlemen do not make threats against officials under the guise of higher authority. Gentlemen do not not act like children. These are thugs! Deal with them!

TBlackmore: The only reason the so called freemen are still free is because they're hiding behind women and children. Hopefully they will see their errors in judgement and surrender before innocent people get hurt..

helmet: The government has no business defying the 4th amendment.

gapitts: If they dont like our goverment and want to start their own, fine; but in a new land like our fathers did! They will have to go some where that has not been part of this country .

GTroyP1: The comments on this issue make me ill. I have never seen anything like this. Anyone who believes that the Freemen are following in the footsteps of the founding fathers are silly, and simply uneducated in history. There are other posts that have made that point. What is important is that in a society such as ours, there are rules, which are followed by the people in that society. If you continue to live in that society, you must follow the rules, period. Our founding fathers, and most every other revolutionary group were part of a majority of people in their society, that decided that the time had come to change their government. The Freemen are not part of a majority, they are malcontents, and they are breaking laws that the rest of us follow everyday. It is not just taxes they don't pay, it's checks they wrote, mortgages they took out, and if the government is not legitimate enough for them to obey those laws, what other laws will they break? I believe that the freemen, and any other minority element that advocates the violent overthrow of government, and arms themselves for that purpose should have the right to do just that. IF they then go forward and break laws, they should be ready to have the force of the government they feel is so illegitimate come down on them. Those of us who feel that it is legitimate, even if flawed, should demand it.

jrw: These fine gentlemen of Montana are clearly expressing the Constitutional right of secession guarenteed for the purpose of ensuring a conservative government. The nature of our government today has become increasingly Anti-Jeffersonian, with a flavor of socialism. If our Constitutional rights levy any weight these days, then the Freemen will be exonerated.

Billzebub: yep, just read the declaration of independance. When you hate the government, start your own.

Dragotha: Hmmm... Interesting prospect here. We could blow them away or we could let them get away. In either case it just dosen't seem good. If we kill them we are saying that our constitutional rights mean nothing. And if we let them go we are saying that anyone can do what they are and get away with it. I think I will let our not so wonderful government make the decision. I mean we voted them into office to make these kinds of decisions.

RonnyRay: Relative to the Montana Freemen issue, such a group would have a legitimate arguement if one condition existed. That condition is if the U.S. Government was tyrranical in nature... Why do I say this? John Locke... If a government becomes so oppressive to its people that their basic natural rights are hindered, then those people have the "right" to overthrow that same government... Our own American Revolution was based upon this concept! I personally do think that the U.S. Government is tyrannical. It is a bit overbearing at time, yes. However, we could do much worse...

badger: Yes they are following in the Founding Fathers' footsteps, actually. Your preface has interesting wording: extremely slanted, wouldn't you say? Not exactly "objective".... Why do you say refusing to pay taxes is a violation? The US Supreme Court has upheld that there is NO POSITIVE LAW that REQUIRES any individual to pay taxes. IRS "Codes" (which are NOT laws, btw), invariably state each title and chapter regards THOSE WHO ARE LIABLE for taxes. Government search agencies can find no law indicating WHO IS LIABLE for taxation. The IRS codes are diliberately ambiguous, and as IRS continually states (and HATES being reminded by Those Who Know): Income Tax is VOLUNTARY. Were it mandatory, it would be illegal nearly twenty ways. The only actual "taxpayers" are US Citizems (NOT to be confused with American Nationals). US Citizens are defined as individuals residing in Washington DC, Puerto Rico, Gaum and the American Simoan Islands. If one does not live in one of those places (and you live in the US), you are an American National. Of course, this does not stop the "government" from tricking people into (a) volunteering to pay taxes, (b) stating they are liable by checking off "US Citizen" on forms, etc. The US Supreme Court has upheld the 16th Amendment gives Congress NO new power to levy taxes. Tax evasion (filing and lying) is illegal. Tax avoidance (not filing) is LEGAL, according to LAW (abiet the IRS acts outside the law). The Supreme Court has stated tax avoidance is not only legal but a patriotic duty. How many have forgotten WHY we broke from England?! The current US Government is in fact, UnConstitutional, acting as a Democracy rather than the Republic it was designed to be. They have created UnConstitutional worthly Insurance Script called "money/currency" which has no legal back of gold or silver. The FBI is "keeping a low profile" not as much to avoid repeating Waco, but to make sure they come off looking good when they've murdered this lot as well. I agree the Montana Freeman are going at it rather... zealously, and I see no way out for them without bloodshed. And while LEGALLY the law and the Constitution is on their side, it won't stop the bullets of the "authorities" from tearing into their patriotic flesh.

PKitching: There is plenty of time...just keep them surrounded and cut-off from any supplies and they will surrender, then take them into custody! If they are against the Government....do what we did....go somewhere else!!

Maynard: The freemen need to be left alone! They are 100% correct from what I've heard of them so far. We have a corrupt federal government that puts the needs of other countries and imigrants to this country above that of their own citizens.

TAbbot: The FBI should wait them out. A repeat of Waco or the Randy Weaver incident will only be further proof of government abuse of authority. I'm still not sure if the charges against the Freeman are legitimate, yet. It wouldn't surprise me if they are accused of child molestion or some other ridiculous charge in the near future. Regardless of innocence or guilt, it is very obvious that many Americans are angry at our own government. If our leaders don't start listening to the people there WILL be another revolution. Why are there no leaders listening? That very question is the real question.

swish: they aren't following in the footsteps of the founding fathers...i second mikey_ptui's suggestion....

brlystad: I know the U.S. has it problems, but there is no other place I would rather be. I think the FBI should show those thiefs just how legitamate the government is!!!

LadyDeVine: A viewpoint of a MONTANA RESIDENT: Some of the ideas of the Freeman are valid. The Government does abuse it's privledges, even with the so-called "Check and Balance" system. But, in order for our country to remain as "free" as it is, we need structured leadership. The Freemen walk on the same soil that I do, drink the water that I drink, use the gasoline I use. I pay taxes to help ensure there will be soil to walk on tomorrow, drinkable water, consumable fuel. The Freemen don't. They seem to believe our country can exist without government regulation. Could you imagine how waste would be disposed of without regulation? The Freeman do make a good contribution to the citizens of the United States - they make us take a second look at our government - they rock the boat a little. I admit I do agree with PARTS of their arguements. My grievence against the Freemen is the racism & terrorism they promote.

barton: The so called freemen are actually very ignorant,brainwashed,rightwing,fanatics. I believe the FBI should give them about two weeks to come out and then if they don't,then the FBI should use what ever force is necessary.If the results is the same as Waco so be it,for they got exactly what they deserved. They are responsible for the death of their own children,not the ATF.These are the same kinds of people who in the 60's would have told you, "American,Love It or Leave It."Maybe because the cold war is over they just don't have anybody to blame their problems on.

alsview: Simplistically, this is an explanation for the way the United States began. However, a factual difference between the blatant anarchy in Montana and the founding of the United States is that our Founding Fathers presented their case to the English King and Parliament in a formal document written by and supported by a powerful and influential interest group within Colonial American society. These people in Montana are merely over-armed, uninformed anarchists who think that anytime an American is disatisfied with the state of the nation, he or she can simply declare the government null and void and secede from the Union. Well, Linclon proved that a fallacy in 1861. The only way to deal with such an anarchistic insurrection in through due process of law. Our judicial system must resolve this issue. In order to terminate the present government of the United States, a convention of citizens, selected by the a majority of the State legislatures, must meet for the purpose of amending the Constituion to refelct the changes they desire. The only other alternative is another Civil War, and no sane person wants that. Sure, we have problems, but we also have the most freeedom-guaranteeing system of governemnt in the world. Of course, we are less free than we used to be. Our democracy is maturing and subject to more threats than in the past. But we're still free enough, and will remain so.

wstewart: Siberia is a similar climate -- call in the planes.

fanzo: The Freemen are acting in the same fashion as the founding fathers. The difference is that they are trying to do it in the same country. They are acting like a gang and should be treated as such. The FBI is in a second guessing situation due to past confontations with extremist individuals and cults. I suspect that there will be a conclusion to what is happening in Jordon Montana. I also suspect that these types of activities will help all Americans realize that feedom of choice also comes with feedom and responsibility.

AlfredA: Nobody likes taxes nobody likes death.BUT since I live in Canada, where our social system provides a saftey net for all, taxes Are the means for a decent living standard. I don't think we should tolerat ANYBODY that would destroy a social system that took generations to build in order to satisfy a few malcontents.

Tiffy: I think that the goverment should let them do whatever they want ONLY if they don't hurt anyone.

pendragn: I think that the Freemen are not completely following in the founder's footsteps because they seem to be against organized society while the founders realized that organized society was necessary. I'm not saying that I'm opposed to their position (I don't understand enough of it) but I think that they need to come to broader realities. That does not mean that the US Gov't is legitimate (I tend to agree with the WRT its illegitimacy), but I think that they must become part of a larger society, and not just individualist separatists. If they're working towards a new and better society, more power to them!

JPFahren: These are a bunch of ignorant rednecks that are taking out their frustrations with the threat of violence. They have been living off of the system they reject and are therefore absolute hypocrites. They think their problems can be solved with guns by force and are not contributing to society. The FBI should just wait them out and prove that they learned restraint by not repeating the Waco tragedy. They should eventually be brought to justice for terrorizing their neighbors and DUELLY elected officials.

Dadelus: Freemen? Hah! Since thier relegious ideology is one of Racial Hatred I find the moniker of their orginization ironic and ludicrous. As for the FBI, I say starve them out then put them in jail. But if fired upon, shoot to kill!

wilmer: Come-on, these folks are wierdos. Don't let anyone in or our of their so called country and when they finally get hungry then they'll come out. If they are criminals, violating our laws then they should be subject to our laws, right?

sbeerman: i think that they shuld pay taxes or else we shuld call them THE MONTANA FREELOADERS

kara: The key difference between a rebellion and a revolution is that the former is a one-time uprising, while the latter is a battle fought with a greater purpose in mind. According to that definition (which, by the way, proves that I did learn something in elementary school), the Freemen are following in the steps of the forefathers, if they are truly holing up with the goal of creating a new social/political structure that could not work within the constraints of the US Constitution. But is that really it? Do they really have a greater plan and social organization in mind? Or are they just rebelling against the costs of taxes? The answer to that question would either easily validate or condemn their actions for me. On another point, regarding the FBI's involvement, it could be argued that the "Rebels" of the south in the Civil War were following in the steps of the forefathers, yet the US government chose to act against them, arguably to the long-term benefit of both sides. Where does that leave the question of FBI involvement on this one?

djthomas: The Founding Fathers actually belived in peaceful solutions to reforming any government. It was not until peaceful solutions had been tried and the King of England (George III) had removed even more power from the colonies. The Colonists had clear and convincing reasons to seperate from England. The Montana Freemen have no clear grievences or convincing complaints other than not wanting to pay their taxes. I personally would love not paying taxes but but that is not a justification to flagrantly break laws. The Montana Freemen should at least to reform the government legally before resorting to anarchy.

KansasJack: The Founding Fathers rebelled against a government whose sole function in the colonies was the collection of taxes. The government of England took no steps to protect the colonists or ensure their welfare, so the colonists did not recognize it as a proper government (whose function is to protect the citizenry and keep the peace). In contrast, the Freemen are receiving all the benefits of living in the United States without paying for any of them. Perhaps, if they refuse to take advantage of government programs such as Social Security, they could be allowed to not pay those specific taxes, but I'm sure they couldn't have gotten to their farm in Montana without traveling on public roads payed for by taxpayers, and without the military which has protected the States for 200 years, the Freemen would probably not exist at all. As for how the situation should be handled, there is no right answer at this point. Obviously, the FBI should avoid loss of life at all costs.

Manson: I think The FBI should not even be involved. Taxes are no more than slavery inforced upon us by the government, it is totally an involuntary service, and I applaud the freeman

deejay: If they have broken any laws,they should face the consequences of their actions.

CapnDick: Clearly, the Montana Freemen are making an attempt to follow our forefathers (and foremothers). While they have many facts quite right, they are in for a very real battle. It is also clear that they are in a minority, of some sort. That minority is that they believe the government should stick by its original purpose; to maintain the freedom and individual liberty that was outlined in the Constitution. The majority of the American populace follows the new school Republican/Democratic B.S. line that the government should make regulations affecting private citizens. The Constitution makes it clear that the only place the government is intended to have any clout is in regulating trade (between national and international concerns), providing for the protection of its citizens and raising enough taxes to do these two things. The rest of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights then goes about listing the many ways the government is NOT supposed to act toward private citizens. So, to wrap this up, The Montana Freemen are R I G H T ! ! ! BUT, popular opinion, the FBI and the ATF will make them pay dearly for daring to challenge our illegal government. This is what the Amendment in the Bill of Rights concerning the "right to bear arms" was all about, being able to arm ourselves against a government that has overstepped the Constitution.

ARomero: Let them be! May God bless them.

JWick: If the founding fathers arrived back here through a time warp, they would be astounded at the complexity of our society, and especially of our government. They would also be very proud of the country that they "founded", the leadership the U.S. has taken in the world. Not everybody needs to participate in the society we share, but there are certain rules that we all agree to to make it work. Some subgroups like the Amish opt not to play by all the rules, but they have worked it out with the authorities. They don't pay social security, but they don't collect it either. They pay taxes, and their kids go to schools, their buggies travel on the public roads, and they participate in paying for them. And they are pacifist, refusing to be drafted; they do alternative service in times of the draft. The Freemen want to redefine government to their own rules, to satisfy their own view of what is real and what is important. More power to them, as long as they don't injure others, take others' rights away, or take unfair advantage of others. It looks like they are prepared to do all three of these things. I feel that the feds have to go after them if they have broken laws and threatened people. No choice. Let's hope it can be done without killing. Can the freemen really believe that they will be left alone? Or that they can win a war with the U.S. government?

FoxyGin: I agree with the Montana Freemen. By law and the Constitution, we are not required to pay taxes. The tax law was never ratified. It is all written down for us to read in a book titled "Vultures in Eagle's Clothing" by Lynne Meredith. It is a book every tax payer should read. I guarantee that everyone born in this country would stop paying taxes. I wish I had found the book before I paid my taxes this year, because the IRS wouldn't have gotten any of my hard earned dollars. The Montana Freemen have every right not to pay taxes and the crooked government that we have should leave them alone. The government is definitely not following in the footsteps of the founding fathers. They are out to get rich at our expense and keep us in the poor house.

neelvk: There are many solutions to the "problem" with the Montana Freemen. First of all, we have to realize that we live in a democracy and we should respect the rights of others. Now, if these Freemen are not paying their taxes, their wages, interest and dividend income can be garnished. If they fail to register their car, and they drive on public roads, their car can be impounded. But if they refuse to talk to or meet with members of the community, it is their business and one of the rights in our constitution is the right to be left alone! If they think that our govt is illegitimate, then they have to encourage people to seek amendments or challenge the current authorities in the legal and political arenas. Or, they could migrate to another country, if they feel no attachment to this land. If they advocate violence as a solution, I have grave problems, but if all they are doing is being a pain in the royal butt to the local authorities, more power to them.

mikey_ptui: Clearly another large scale forest fire would both reduce this fetid group of falsely independent carpet baggers means of profit leverage and allow a sequel to recent made-for-television cinema for further gain on amortized props and set. Removing all agents what are desired to be recovered and dispersing some costly stores of agent orange and napalm seems the pursuit of happiness at this time.