This week: School Daze?

Seventeen years ago, when Pink Floyd sang "We don't need no education, we don't need no thought control," disaffected youths across the globe (including the Tripod editorial staff) nodded their heads and pumped their fists in a giant, unified, "Damn right!" But was it the truth, or was it just hormone-induced teen angst speaking? This week on Tripod, William "Upski" Wimsatt argues that school dulls our minds and turns perfectly good kids into unthinking automatons. Tell us about your educational experience. Did you have a traditional schooling? Did you homeschool? Did you learn more in school or out?

Read what others have said so far, and then tell us what you think.

See what Tripod members had to say about finding community on the Net in the last survey. For other past survey results, check our survey archive.

A new Politics & Community survey is published each Thursday.

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Jaynee: I think the graduates (got something out of school). Graduates got a chance to go to college. Those who did so and finished school got a higher salary. Those who did not got the same job but less money. And it'll stay that way for most of their lives (some jobs excepted). Dropouts enjoyed their lives at the moment. Free time, no responsibility, no authority. But in the long run, what did they really gain? Not much of anything.

mgandhi: I can't think; I went to school!

PhilMiller: I hated school in the early grades and even through the high school years. The question is, why? I sometimes wonder if the entire system sould be evaluated (it'd take a long time to change if it's possible). I work in a school now and ask kids constantly if they enjoy being there; they all almost always say that it sucks and it's boring. Why should our children be subjected to the seemingly endless 6-hour day that we would not dare to resubject ourselves to.

Being in college now, I understand that education is necessary for me to succeed. Children don't have that luxury of understanding the values of education. Until they realize this, let's try to make education fun and exciting!

verbos: I agree w/ "Upski". I can remember being told in my high school "creative" writing class that I couldn't do certain papers ... that's not allowing me to be very creative!

Also, the whole notion of sitting in class 7-8 hours a day just listening to teachers go through their routine would make anyone brain dead. I was more creative in 1st grade than I was as a senior. High school will just suck all of that creativity out of you...its real sad.

smith_a_cat: I think people get out what they allow themselves. Some people just glide through school without thinking too much. These people would do this in any situation. Other people allowed themselves to find the interesting tidbits that they could get out of an otherwise pretty mundane process. Yes, we are transformed into workers and that can be unsettling when you think about it. There are teachers who attempt to put themselves into their work, but for the most part they are also automatized into thinking that they can't do anything really monumental for children. Unfortunately they to have learned to just follow the rules.

Gadj: I learned very little in high school, partied too much. Once I got out I learned much more, such as how hard it was to make a living, raise a family and have a relationship with that family.

Out of all this education I got on the street, I was able to land a job at my old high school and become director of operations at age 57. I watch the students now that are trying to emulate me as a student and I see a lot of heartache and hard work laid out on the road ahead of them. Will they listen? No, but we try to tell them!

gregr: I work in technology and I find that if you can troubleshoot a network then you can get a job. They don't teach network troubleshooting in most colleges. I recieved almost all of my education from life experience, and feel good about it. I also have pursued music writing and technical writing for magazines successfully. My brother in Oregon asks me if I know how lucky I am. He says he knows college grads in Portland who are flipping burgers! The only burgers I've ever flipped have been on my own barbecue!

Faramir: I quit school at age 15. I got my high school equivalency in the Army. I qualified for every school the Army had as a drop-out, but the lack of diploma kept me out of those schools (thank God, I might have stayed in). I'm working on a bachelor's degree right now. School does regimentize, and we need less of that. But it also proves that you can stick to a goal (graduation), so it's a 50-50 choice. You can go to school and take the chance of deadening your mind, or quit school and reinforce the "quitter" syndrome. I've met very intelligent and creative homeschooled children, but my children, products of whatever we can do for them plus the public schools are also intelligent and can think for themselves. So I don't necessarily place the blame on the schools -- parents must share the blame that their pursuit of materialism has led them to neglect their children and require the schools to pick up the slack that the cannot pick up.

aeaston: I remember school as a very painful experience. I wouldn't subject myself to high school or junior high again for anything. Currently I'm in college and enjoying it. I remember my high school counselor saying that I wouldn't make it to college and I remember several other teachers making similar comments to me, to other students, and to whole classrooms. The educational system needs a major overhaul.

RickaC: I had traditional schooling at a nationally renowned public school in East Texas (Pine Tree High). Most of my teachers were excellent teachers that challenged me to grow not only in my education, but also as a person. However, I may have been one of the "chosen few." I was in all honors classes. I have heard from too many students in the normal classes that they did not receive such special attention. Many of these same students could have been in honors classes, but they had never become interested in school or in doing well in school, so they never bothered. I think it's too bad that only a small amount of students get the great education that I feel I got. I also think there should be more to education than academic. Math, science, and English I know; art, philosophy, psychology, music, etc, I am definitely lacking in. I feel somewhat cheated when I think about how much more there is to learn about.

AndyBehlen: I think that that is a bunch of BS. I am a high school student and I know that I will never get a job today with no school education. I think they should shove that up their you know what.

DiGiTAL_ANaRcHY: I think that school, in its current form, is overused, outdated, and seen too dramatically. I attend a public school. In years past, I have been placed in "higher learning" classrooms, have been to school-sponsored "enrichment activities," and have scored perfectly on many achivement tests. What does this mean? Not a damn thing. School is a place for overconfident underachivers. If only our society were not so dependent upon the mighty diploma.

warmspirit: I have dropped out of HS sometime before I was a senior. I've lived in ditches and abandoned homes, but my favorite was a good old cedar tree. However, I went back to school after 17 years and received multiple degrees. The process was much more educational than the content. My salary increased by $2,000 per year for every year in college and I chose the least-paying field: social work. If I can huff paint, shoot dope and pop pills with the best of 'em and turn it around, then anyone can. Oh, buy the way, I had mostly D's & F's in school.

dsestate: I have a few very vivid images which, to me, epitomize the thought process behind teaching today. In my high school creative writing class, I received very good grades. However, my creative approach to writing a term paper made my teacher remark that such writing would surely make me fall into disfavor with college professors. In college, my creative writing professor once told me that she did not care for a particular type of subject matter, one which I loved writing about. I wrote the paper anyway, and got a C, although my structure was fine and I got the point across. Finally, there was the psychopathology professor who asked us to write a book report. We had 2 or 3 book choices. One of the book choices was the professor's own work in his field of specialty. Mysteriously, those who did a book report on that book did very well. I received comments from the professor that I had actually written a cohesive, well-written report. I got a C.

fvincent: We homeschool 4 teens. Sometimes you question if they are "keeping up" with peers. The antidote is spending time with the peers, the immaturity can be shocking. Our kids are remarkably free to do as they please. "Deep" study of music, religion, and any other subject becomes a possibility. Time spent alone or with family results in well-roundedness due to the age mix. Financially it may be a wash. You get to earn earlier if you quit, but may make more with a degree, etc. The degree choice is still an option, but you may be less likely to do something you don't "want" to. Choices come up unschooled that you may never be exposed to otherwise. College, etc. is no longer a guarantee of decent wages.

schayne: Public school didn't do a thing for me. In fact, I found that I had to re-educate myself after leaving high school. I did however get a good indoctrination in liberalism through public school. I have since abandoned that too. My wife and I plan to homeschool our children.

dishiwalla: I think you need an education for a normal job. I'm a disc jockey, and the things I needed for my job weren't taught in school; I needed to pick them up along the way. Let's face it, my job is switches, buttons, jokes, and lots and lots of music. Maybe (I'd need an education) for late-night trivia but I give away CDs for that to people who know the answer. My point is, you may need a further education if you're going to be a real sucess in anything but the entertainment industry, and even I had a hell of a time getting into the Radio Personalities Union (yes, we do have one), 'cause I didn't go to college.

Nesron: I do not believe that attending a school will always result in a education. To learn how to learn is the hardest skill to master. So much of what went on when I was in school -- and is going on now -- is nothing more than rote memorization. Just remembering a set of dry facts does not mean that one comprehends a subject. In the modern classroom of up to fifty kids, there is nothing possible but a test of the facts.

There was one class that I had in high school that taught me to think on my own -- one out of all the classes. It also led me to what I hope will be my career -- historical research. I think the problem is that I object to the common belief that quantity equals quality. Until the politics are removed from the educational system there will be very little actual learning.

bcarver: Upski is an idiot. It is ridiculous to suggest to kids to just quit school. Upski will not be there for them when they're alone on the streets. Are schools perfect? No. Can we improve them? Yes. No wonder schools are a mess, when we refuse to pay our teachers squat. If we want the best people to be our children's teachers then we have to draw them away from the better salaries they could make in other industries. Next time property-tax increases hit your local ballot, think about it.

xiola: Wimsatt generalizes too much. Yes, you can get an education in the outside world, but you can get an even more excellent one in college if you try. People who go to school can be brain-dead and grade-driven -- but that's because their priorities are misplaced. You can skid by college, but what's the point? These people shouldn't be in school in the first place. And far from being mind-control, most colleges challenge conventional suppositions in a way that few in the outside world would (because of time constraints and fear of being fired). If it weren't for scholarly thinking most women would still be locked into sappy gender roles and no one would think anything about it. Schools are for those who want to learn -- they are a gathering place for intellectual thought.

TereziB: I was one of those kids who always heard "she's so bright, but she's not working up to her potential." My problem was that I wanted to learn what was interesting ... and not much of what was going on in school was. I have learned so much more by being an avid reader than by doing rote homework assignments. I made it through high school (even won a NY state scholarship and was a merit scholarship finalist), but found myself unable to stay in college more than one semester (and I tried three different colleges). I guess my problem was that I wanted to learn what I wanted to learn, not what I was told I should learn. The only reason to go to college, I'd say, is to get that piece of paper. Sad, isn't it?

Lilith_Silverhair: I hated elementary and high school with a passion. Not fitting in with any of the crowds, having a mind that did not readily accept the crap the teachers were trying to cram down my throat, etc. -- all of this and more made my early school years a living hell. It wasn't until I got to college that I enjoyed learning. It was there that I was able to use my brain, ask questions and be myself. Of course, then I went out into the "real world" and it all changed back again...

Richard: How many of these (homeschool-advocating) whiners have I heard in the past 30 years? They read one page of Rousseau for one plagiarized term paper in college and decided that back-to-nature was the answer -- noble savage, etc. I always have to come back to Jung and an ancient theological tradition (from many believers): We are always engaged in an "opus contra naturam" and schools are the place we do that, and it's a messy, bloody business, more like the sands of the arena (gladiators, matadors) than carpeted, wired-up, creative schools.

Maybe if more parents came down into the arena to cover up the bloody sand rather than sit on the shady side, things would be different in the arena, and more of our kids would go home with the bull's ear in their pockets!

Konchus: The reason that youth are dissatisfied with today's education is because they are not being taught many life-related things in the classroom. The few essential classes that are taught are not taught in a relatable or understandable manner. Educators today seek more so to control rather than teach, when teaching solves lack-of-control problems. If students' ratings show a lack of understanding as a symptom in their educational condition, there is no effective personal, relational help offered by educators.

GreenZine 1. If a white guy brave enough to live in Kenwood and go by a name like Upski said it, then it has to be right.
2. College has become so de facto for so many, and so far out of the financial reach of so many others, that simply having a degree signifies virtually nothing about its owner other than parental wealth. Anyone who's ever spent more than 10 minutes on a big state-school type college campus knows that university life in America actually makes its youngsters stupider. And a quick stroll around Hyde Park, where Upski resides, proves that the longer someone stays in school (picture the 15-year ABD types with long beards), the more stupider he becomes.
3. The idea that a college degree guarantees, or even HELPS, land a higher-paying job, is fiction. (True, college grads make more than non-college grads. But that's a self-selected group of overachievers. In other words, those same graduates, had they elected not to waste their time in college, would still do better than those who didn't have the option.)
4. Dropping out of college is really cool. Whenever I'm bested in an argument, I shrug my shoulders and say, "Well, SOME OF US didn't go to fancy colleges..." Overeducated types, particularly those who majored in the humanities, find the lack of a college degree irresistably sexy. Trust me on this one, and work it!
5. Dropping out automatically grants you the credibility of a rebellious, unionist, working-class stiff. Even if you're, say, Bill Gates, or Edgar Bronfman or Ken Kurson.

See ya in Community College,
Ken Kurson

JohnBullard: I attended public schools and received a "basic education." I could have applied myself a little more and maybe would have gotten a little more out of the public education system. As it was, I did the minimum to receive passing grades. I am amazed at the small amount of effort that was required to receive a high school diploma. I honestly spent less than two hours a week on homework. We must improve the public school system. Although I graduated twelve years ago I have recently developed an interest in the public school system. I have a child as well as several nieces and nephews in grade school and high school. From speaking with parents of other students it is evident that this small amount of effort is still enough to receive a passing grade. If not for the interest of concerned parents an even greater percentage of high school graduates would not be able to read the diplomas they receive from this system.

dmcneil: All these crybabies sobbing their little hearts outs because school is soooo boring make want to me puke! These are the kids who have no direction in their lives either because mom and dad pick up their debts to society or because they envy that rock/sports/movie star. That ain't workin'. Our country has become a place of wannabes without working. Grow up! There isn't one dropout who doesn't wish he'd stayed the course. School teaches you to learn, but you have to want to learn first.

CDW56: The only thing I learned in my 6.5 years of schooling is that loquacious circumlocution is no arbitor of intelligence and, indeed, even when applied with a clumsy affectation of adroitness, is nothing other than an indicator of a near-simian ability of mimicry. Pathetic, no?

grok: Upski seems to have written nothing more than an advertisment for homeschooling. I wish that he'd started out that way instead of using his views as an excuse to criticize the public school systems. If he couldn't "hack" public schools, that's all well and good, but most of us did just fine. The point that 3 homeschoolers went on to attend Harvard is not very impressive to those of us who live near Ivy League schools and regularly meet graduates who are too stupid to chew gum and read at the same time.

Schools (public and private) can only give the background needed to learn -- the motivation to learn can only come from home. It's amazing how few people mentioned parents in the survey, and that's the only significant difference in homeschooling vs automatically expecting the school systems to teach and motivate children. The old argument that teachers are underpaid only applies in a minority of states -- for example, in Connecticut the average is over $43,000/year. This could be $1,000,000/year, and it still wouldn't be enough if the parents aren't involved. Sadly, this hits all economic brackets, but because (years ago) the more advantaged started crying because "junior" wasn't able to graduate, the standards were lowered so far that a college graduate today would be lucky to hold his own with a high school graduate of past years.

Sure school can be boring at times -- that's one of the few things that a teacher can do something about in many cases. There's always going to be some parts of any subject that have to be learned before anything else, and Gee -- that can be dull. Welcome to real life, sooner or later you have to learn that life dosen't always come easy, or that worthwhile things can take work. As the old saying goes, "Quit yer bitchin!"

figpuck: Public education is designed so that students who aren't really interested in a subject will at least know a few simple tricks and formulas to be competent if called on to use that subject in their daily lives. Those who are really good at these subjects, who start the year able to do better work than the State Board of Education mandates, are rarely called upon or even given the opportunity to explore the full range of their interests. Rather than focusing on a particular area of interest of each student, schools briefly touch on a particular set of factoids that help students to do well on standardized tests, so that school systems statewide may look better.

BarbM: Public school has as many pros and cons as does homeschooling. Problem is, like someone else said here, we have all quit taking responsibility for our own learning and teaching as parents and have sat on our butts expecting teachers to make Junior a genius. Not gonna happen. Trouble with home school is that sooner or later those kids have got to hit the mean streets of the real world. Public school gives kids a dose of that from the get-go.

jdfrost: I was blessed to be raised in an immigrant family that spend most of its money (earned as teachers) educating my sister and me. And so we were able without extraordinary difficulty to attend the colleges and graduate schools of our choice. Is this inheritence? Yes. Should I throw away the fruit of thier work? No. Did they work hard? Yes. Do I? Yes.

I agree that much of my days in school and college was a boring waste. But other days were inspiring and mind-opening. And through it all I learned discipline and self-responsibility, as well as befriending people from other parts of the world and discovering new ways to have fun.

If you're over 18, you have full rights. It's your life. It's what you make of it. If you don't like school, leave.

jfsvensson: "If the brushes should clean well you can't have a bad stick." -- Ebba Green

formicacid: In his article, Upski seems to avoid any original message. He instead restates what he has read in other books, which ends up making the article very one-sided. I might be much more convinced by his article had he presented counterarguments to his argument (something I learned to do in school). As is, I believe his views are rather weak and his ideas are extremely stereotyped.

BLZBUB: I was educated in southwest Florida. Abysmal! It's a wonder that I can think at all. Education in America is nothing more that a gross exercise in mental masturbation (a form of self-abuse that the Catholic Church certaily does not disapprove of!). Instead of telling us the truth about how we systematically slaughtered Native Americans, for instance, they taught us about Manifest Destiny, as though this made it all OK. And of course the bullshit goes on and on, with very little change. Our so-called system of education in this country is much the same as it was twenty and thirty years ago, and perhaps the advent of the Internet and access to vast amounts of data will help to really educate our future generations.

Nanda: It would be interesting to see how many self-made millionaires have graduate or post-graduate degrees. College education seems to make one fit for working for someone else, not creating an empire of one's own. As we move increasingly towards a vendor-oriented society, opportunities are decreasing for long-term jobs with a corporation. Traditional education does not seem to make people think for themselves and, therefore, does not make them create for themselves. In the industrial age, learning to be a good worker bee was an asset; in the information age, it is a liability.

warpcorebreach: This is actually rather an interesting area, and the "sound bites" here don't do it justice. As it happens, I attended public school all my life and thoroughly enjoyed it. Sure, some of it was not pushing me to my fullest, but I got that as supplemental work at home. The same is happening with my kids. They're enjoying school a lot, and learning, but by no means do I expect school to be the sole source of education for my children. That is a foolish expectation generated by far too many people who prefer to criticize the public schools rather than take responsibility for part of their children's upbringing. Incidentally, I have been involved in various "qualities" of public school systems, and I have really been impressed with how similar the problems are. And, in fact, how much difference more money can make.

dkscully: I was educated, and am still being educated, in a secondary school in Singapore, a small country in southeast Asia. Singaporean students achieve academic excellence, at least, some of them do, but they also make up a high percentage of patients suffering from nervous and mental problems, especially depression. A high percentage of suicides are also committed by students below the age of 18 yearly.

So what are the schools teaching us? The message given to many students is "Academic excellence is everything in society and in life." Is that the truth? I believe there is more to education than academics; social and analytical skills are also important, but students rarely get the chance to learn and put these into practice in their daily curriculum.

Like many students of my generation, I feel held back by the rigid system of school. I am not challenged to think for myself, I simply copy and memorize the information given to me. In time, school molds me into what society expects a student to be: an accepting, unthinking person who takes whatever is given to him or her without questioning, reasoning, thinking.

Fortunately, some school principals in Singapore have begun to recognize this problem and it is becoming an issue of increasing importance and urgency. And it should be -- the education system molds the future of a country.

Hopey: We were taught things that were not true and were known not to be true (Columbus, WWII lies, etc.).

We were conditioned to respond to bells and were told to be worried more about letter grades than in whether we even learned anything. If we couldn't pass a class, we would be moved ahead after a few tries.

Our schoolbooks were usually 20 years outdated. Football was a bigger priority than grammar. Those who excelled were taunted and even beaten by those who didn't, and this was sanctioned and sometimes even encouraged by those who taught us.

The public school system is the reason most of us are floundering now in the adult arena. Everything they never bothered to teach us, we are now supposed to know. Pathetic.

PickinDaisies: I went to a public school in California, and was lucky enough to have been in GATE and given the opportunity to take advanced classes. They had money for those programs 10 years ago when I was in high school. Unfortunately, I swayed down the wrong path for a while and blew my opportunities. I now work for the same school district and there isn't money for many good programs. However, I think the public needs to become more involved in school board meetings to see how monies are being allocated. For example: A state grant comes in for $3 million, suposedly for Special Ed., yet a year and a half later my classroom is still without a computer or any of the things needed for our program outline. Where is the money going?

Tim Cole: Most kids I see quitting school are either "quitters" or have convinced themselves that they have "learned life" in their few short years and are decidedly more intelligent than their peers or teachers. While I might agree about the teachers, I still feel that mandatory education up to the age of sixteen is really a misunderstood privilege. It was originally instituted in order to assure a literate constituency for the formation of a democratic republic. Imagine having poor reading skills at the voting booth! OR, imagine have a poor knowledge of history, or of government, or of writing (creative as well), or of better-than-counting-on-fingers math while trying to determine who will run your country, or your state, or your county, city, or township.

Is education necessary? Damned right! I won't trust you, my peer, at that voting booth or in that office if you don't have a background in the knowledges I just recounted! It isn't just about getting a job, or going to college, or having "free will." Show me a person who doesn't change at least minor portions of their life's philosophy and I'll show you a person who doesn't grow in wisdom and maturity!

MartiS: I am currently in high school and I make good grades but I agree with Upski. Where I go to school all you do is go to class and listen to the teacher lecture you. By the time school is over you couldn't care less or even remember what you heard that day. It needs to be more hands-on learning: go places, participate in the society, etc. The people who make the good grades get more attention. Those who do not just sit back and slide through with whatever they can. It is pretty bad when you walk down the hall after school and all you hear is "I hate school" and "This sucks". Personally I would like to quit school and travel around the world.

formicacid: Question: For all the disgust heard here about the current state of educational methods used in the world, does anybody have any information on ways to improve the system? How about a point-by-point outline of exactly how to invent a better system?

Should there be more focus on project-based science? Less emphasis on test scores? More funding for studies of the arts? And who pays for it? Last thing I heard from the polls was that none of you wanted to pay more taxes.

blakek: I'm not that old -- 26. I graduated from a four-year college and completed one year of law school.

Public school and undergraduate college, in my humble opinion, is profitless and harmful to intellegent, self-directed children and young adults. I was a good student and graduated summa cum laude, but I was never challenged, rarely in a classroom controlled by the teacher, and almost never took a course where the students were expected to or actually did prepare.

As a result, my entire school experience (save the law school) was an exercise in fruitless waiting and being babysat. As far as I can tell, college is a meaningless accomplishment today. I can't tell you how disappointed I am, because a strong education was my highest hope for those years. So, after the fact, I'm resorting (well, perhaps that isn't the right word) to teaching myself.

Encounter: You have to have an education to advance in this world. I am a sophomore in high school, and in the first 16 years of my life, school has taught me more than I could have ever imagined. Not only has it taught me chemistry, geometry, and english, but how to recognize myself for who I am. I don't consider myself a non-thinking machine, just a human being trying to grow up in this world.