This week: Is greed good?

Gordon Gekko, Michael Douglas' character in "Wall Street," seemed to think so, and he made a pretty compelling argument in defense of traditional capitalism. And hey, it's tough to deny that the market system works. But one might ask: For whom? Which begs the original question: Not does greed work, but is it good? This week, Tripod columnist Howard Zinn presents some compelling arguments of his own against a strict free-market economy, and now we're not sure whom to believe. So tell us: Is capitalism the best way to organize a civilized society? Does a rising tide lift all boats? Or do the dinghies sink when the yachts cruise by?

Read what others have said so far, and then tell us what you think.

See what Tripod members had to say about the differences between public, private, and parochial schooling in the last survey. For other past survey results, check our survey archive.

A new Politics & Community survey is published each Thursday.

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Oshhale: Greed is the basis of capitalistic society, and unfortunately our society would crumble without it. So greed in one sense in bad, but to keep our society going, it is a must.

KBucher: Capitalism may lead to greed, but communism definitely does not lead to good. Humans, being what they are, always tend to look out for themselves. Capitalism provides the freedom and the opportunity for an individual to excel as much or as little as they like. Communism provides a forced equality to the lowest common denominator with a small number of wealthy elitists.

Nowhere in the plan for humankind does it say that all are assured of an equal (good/wealthy/lazy) outcome, but at least our Constitution provides that everyone has the right to "pursue happiness" in whatever manner they see fit. In a free-market society, everyone has the same basic opportunities to succeed ... not everyone will take those opportunities.

paulgowder: HA! The essence of Soviet socalism was the replacement of greed with power-lust. In communism, it can only be worse. Marx said (paraphrase) "If a man wants to be a fisherman, let him fish ... if he wants to do nothing, let him," and Lenin said (exact quote) "From each according to his means, to each according to his needs." Those two principles, summarized in two words, are injustice and stupidity. The few work to feed the rest of society, creating a terrible injustice, where those with the "means" suffer so that those with the "needs" can sleep easily. The other option is to allow the "means" people to "be fishermen" also. Now, nothing is done. As his people starve, the communist dictator will surely regret removing individual incentive from the world of production. As I ajm wont to do, I feel the need to refer you to The Right Click for further information.

Mark: Is ANYONE still so stupid as to think that communism has or could work? Go back to the "greed" argument, and you have the answer why it cannot ever work in the forseeable future. Only drug washouts and a few overpowered leaders in China have not yet grasped reality -- animals are greedy, and humans are animals.

Good? Evil? It sort of depends on what people do when they acquire wealth, isn't it? Factory owners in the south paying employees for a year after the factory burns down, and the recent reports of the software company that paid employees a $75,000 Christmas bonus illustrates that. Of course, many employers do what they can, but it's not news unless it's exceptional.

And the poor Joe that has to let some workers go to keep the business alive at all becomes evil in some people's eyes. Perhaps it's more a matter of perspective and experience, and a realistic recognition of human motivations. Greed may not be good, but it's damn sure universal.

allisoncm: Greed can lead to stealing or cheating. Greed is not good, but significantly bad. More harm is done by greed than many other characteristics.

egh: Paul believes that communism leads to the few working to support the many. I am not a Communist per se, but it seems to me that capitalism leads to the many supporting the few, and I ask which is better? Capitalism encourages greed, because that is what it is about. A corporation's only purpose is profit. If it can't make a profit, it will cease to exist. Now, I mistrust government as much as the next person, but it seems to me that at least government's purpose is not to create more profit no matter what the cost. The only things that keep corporations in check are government and organized labor -- without these two corporations would do whatever they wanted and lay even greater waste to the Earth.

State communism (or was it state capitalism?) didn't work, but capitalism isn't doing so hot itself (though many in the U.S. are quite comfortable, it always comes at the expense of others). It seems to be time for something entirely different.

cracker: I don't agree that capitalism leads to greed. Capitalism generally rewards hard work, thus motivating one to achieve more, but that is not greed. Greed probably descends upon those who can't handle the reality of success so they want more and more, but I think they are in the minority. To even try to compare capitalism to communism is an exercise in futility. Just look around the World and review the changes in the last few years.

ozzyosbourne: KBucher points out what I think is the biggest fallacy of free-market societies: "In a free-market society, everyone has the same basic opportunities to succeed ... not everyone will take those opportunities."

This is bullshit. Do you really think that a black child born in the ghetto has the same opportunity as a white child from suburbia? The playing field is not equal. We are not all given the same opportunity to pursue wealth. Some of us have family connections, wealth, and the privilege of race on our side. I don't think the answer is socialism, but let's be honest about the fact that American society has gross inequities.

Mark: Here's a piece of information that might answer the question -- Almost all the millionaires in this country made the money themselves. Not lotto winners or from wealthy families.

I'm not a millionaire, but I have met a few, and the one thing they all had in common is that they worked very hard (making the rest of us that think we work hard look lame). Race and family financial background didn't seem to matter as much as the work ethic, luck, and knowing how to get the information to be able to make a good living.

Is that greed? Perhaps of a kind. Is it evil or wrong? Only to the people that think they should get the same rewards without the same effort and sacrifices.

loose: The two oil embargos of the '70s took care of the rising tide/boat lift theme. Communism is circular but capitalism uses resources too rapidly. If it's not the environment, the hole, the atmosphere that sucks us up in their wealth wake it will be the weight of used trinkets that gets us. A never-ending search for customers keeps humans occupied but does little else.

RLP: Capitalism is a good way to organize a society. Capitalism, however, has its flaws, but then again, which policy does not? And yes, capitalism leads to greed, and yes, to many greed is "bad." Nonetheless, greed is a key element in survival. It is greed in our capitalistic society that has pushed us to try to succeed -- to get more money. We want what our neighbor has, so we sork hard to get it. Hard work, accompanied by education and cleverness, leads to great results. Without capitalism there would not be a sense of competition (greed), which is very important in our social, technical, and mental development.

autozagato: Food for thought: In the U.S we probably have the most non-profit organizations in the world reaching out and helping those in need far more than the government is able to. That proves that when there is wealth, we share it. On the other hand you have socialism and communism where the government takes everyone's money and the only thing shared is a common misery.

kaimi: Greed is a capitalist perversion of a human drive to perfection. The former is systemic, the latter is genetic -- like breathing.

Hurdle rates vs. hurt ratios, that's the real choice. By definition, capitalists (with their hurdle rates) make societal allocation decisions under capitalism, based on maximizing private benefit. Under socialism (the apples-to-apples comparison with capitalism), allocation decisions are made democratically, based on maximizing social benefit.

How long are we going to support a propaganda machine that allows corporations to mow down our people and our places? Even Adam Smith warned that the "invisible hand" works only given the "good instrument." Assuming that something like "civic life" is a "good instrument," why are we surprised that capitalism tears that apart as well?

Farrt: Hell, yes! Capitalism rocks and anyone who denies it is a lazy good-for-nothing loser.

joelcolo: Is capitalism the best way to organize a society? In order to answer this question we just have to take a look to what our society has become. Capitalism does not want to change, but our society needs to change. So we have two choices: We change the system, or we modify our society. The first choice is the most logical but capitalism itself has made it impossible to achieve. The second choice is impossible too because of the first.

There is no doubt that capitalism has led us to wars, crime and greed. Our only goals are economic goals and we have not provided sufficient resources to achieve them. Everyone wants to be rich and only one will be. That is the reason for this mess. Economic goals are not bad, but they can't be our only goals. All the falacies of the American Dream have made us blind. People just can't realize that there are better ways, that we should try, or at least let other people try.

Capitalism was a response to feudalism, and feudalism was a response to slavery. Socialism will be a natural response to capitalism. Simple.

paulgowder: Just a few comments: Greed is not the goal of capitalism. The good of all is the goal of capitalism. Greed is a valid force toward that goal. It is profitable to provide a benefit to others. For example: If a company offers low-cost goods, it makes more profit. If it treats its workers well, there will be less turnover and more profit. "Greed" works for the good of all, as long as it is to the corporation's advantage. That is why comfort does not come at the expense of others.