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Carol Carter
interviewed by Brian Hecht on September 17, 1995
". . . I think that this is a very difficult and competitive job environment."
Carol Carter is the the author of the acclaimed "Majoring in the Rest of Your Life: Career Secrets for College Students"
Tripod: Your book is called "Majoring in the Rest of Your Life." What did you major in?
CC: I actually was a double major in Spanish and English literature and the reason I chose to name the book ["Majoring in the Rest of Your Life"] is that a lot of freshman start school and they have no sense of what it is they want to study or what they might be interested in. I think the process of analyzing your interests and your abilities and figuring out what it is that really makes you passionate is the same process you can use to figure out what you want to study in college. Its also the same process that you can use to figure out the kinds of life choices you want to make for yourself in terms of career and personal goals. Those can work together, and that's why I chose that title.
Tripod: How much of your approach is based on self awareness and how much of it is just smart time management?
CC: I would say you would have to start with self awareness, because you can't set your goals or manage your time if your not clear on why it is you want what you want. That's why at the beginning of the book, I really start out talking about determining your strengths, abilities and interests. Because to really be effective in prioritizing your life goals, your yearly goals, your monthly goals, and your daily goals you have to have a sense of what your overall mission is. And you can't find your mission unless you are clear on what you really want. I think many of people go through life going from pillar to post without every stepping back to look at the larger picture of who they are and what they might want. So that's what we're trying to encourage students to do, as freshman -- become more strategic thinkers about themselves. That'll help them open up many more possibilities later -- professionally as well as personally.
Tripod: Your whole approach is very optimistic at a time when lots of young people appear to be cynical or even pessimistic. Have you encountered any resistance because of this, or do you think that perception is accurate?
CC: I think that basically people create their own realities and I think that this is a very difficult and competitive job environment. I think that when I graduated in 1984 it was also competitive and it was hard to get good jobs. So if you want to break out of that morass of lemmings who are all trying to go for some of the same things, you have to be very specific and clear on what it is you bring to prospective employers. As a freshman, you should know that four years later when you go to interview for a job or even for graduate school, they're going to want to know what, beyond a solid academic record, you've been able to do. I think, whether you're pessimistic or optimistic, that's your responsibility, and if you don't take the reigns, then you basically have to live with the consequences of fewer options and jobs that can be unrewarding or don't necessarily have exciting career paths. Employers look for people who have a real attitude of responsibility. A real sense of mission and sense of possibility about themselves and their own destiny. And I think if they pick up on any sense of "I'm a victim of graduating during the 90s" then they're going to believe that you let yourself be one. That's the kind of approach that I've always taken. I've always tried to look deeply to see if there are traces of that victim thing in the people I've interviewed, because it can be really dangerous. If people are in that sort of mindset I think its helpful to just nuke that early on in life, because it can be really problematic in the workplace.
Tripod: Lots of smart, well intentioned people are scared of being perceived as a networker or as a career climber. How can someone use your methods while avoiding that perception?
CC: I think that you can be a good person at gathering information and be a good investigator and still be genuine. People pick up whether you're the type of person who is trying to climb over the backs of others to get ahead or the type who really truly has something that they're willing to give other people; someone who's got a sense of responsibility to others. I think that it comes through even on the phone when people do phone interviews. The language somebody chooses when asking a question, or the way in which somebody chooses to deal with a secretary or assistant, is telling. The people who come across as very political are the ones who are self serving. All they are trying to do is get information for their own purposes and go on to the next thing. But I think that most employers and people you come in contact with will know within about the first two minutes of a conversation what kind of person you are, and will decide whether or not to give you some additional information and help.
Tripod: A lot of your advice centers around the concept of becoming self-aware. It seems like there might be a vicious cycle there, doesn't it? It takes a certain self awareness to get to a point where you can nurture your own self awareness. How do you get that cycle started on the right track?
CC: I think you have to be really serious about wanting to change yourself. I think a lot of people are afraid of change and they resist it. They find it easier to just build a fortress of brick around themselves, than to say, "Here are my strengths and weaknesses. Although it may be tough to face some of my weaknesses or difficult traits, I'm going to look at that stuff honestly and do something about it." It takes real self honesty, and that's what I've really tried to explain in the book. I try to show some of my own vulnerabilities and things I've had to really struggle with. Because I think that you can't ask someone else to do that, if you don't show that you're capable of doing that yourself.
Tripod: It also seems like real challenge to work your limitations in artfully in such a competitive environment. Are there any tricks to letting someone know that you're aware of your limitations without...
CC: Yes. In fact frequently interviewers will ask questions such as: "What are your strengths and weaknesses?" "How do you deal with your weaknesses?" "Tell me about one of your failures and what it has taught you." You can always tell by the way someone describes a failure or setback, whether they've been defeated by it, or thought it was a learning experience and an opportunity to become stronger and go on to the next challenge. I love that Winston Churchill quote that says, "Success is the ability to move from one failure to another, with no loss of enthusiasm." I think that's exactly right. If you're not sticking your neck out, you're going to be in a safe environment, and nothing's ever going to change or be different. If you are sticking your neck out you're going to have failures from time to time, because that's the nature of risk.
Tripod: You pose one of the fundamental conflicts for young people as being between "Go for it," and "No way, I'm scared." If you could recommend one thing maybe, let's say for a freshman to start making the right choices, what's the one element of your method, of your book, that you would recommend?
CC: I would say the one thing is to recognize the value of your own potential. Most people sell themselves short. They look at a lot of the externals as things that will hold them back. Instead, they need to look at the gifts and qualities that they have and say "I'm going to develop those thing to the fullest. I'm going to have a will that is so strong that I can go out and really create a future for myself; a future that has elements of life and elements of work that make me feel fulfilled." Having the courage to be able to do that is one of the most important things that young people can, and should, do. That's what distinguishes people who are really able to feel fulfilled in their life and in their work, from people who just do jobs, punch the timeclock, go home each night, shovel food in their mouth, and go on to the next day.
Tripod: What can institutions do -- I'm thinking of schools, especially -- to help people major in the rest of their lives? Should there be a major: the rest of your life?
CC: I think there should be courses for freshman on this type of thing -- whether its called "majoring in the rest of your life" or "career exploration" or "figuring out yourself "or whatever. There is clearly a need for freshman who are undecided to explore fields that are out there to help them decide on a major. And also to explore careers that are out there. If there were those kinds of courses, then, by the time people were sophomores, they could say "OK anthropology fascinates me," or "I love chemistry. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it right now, but I'm going to study it because I want a well-rounded education. Along with my education and activities outside the classroom, this will really help me make the most out of this college experience." But I think we don't really level with freshman and give them a whole approach to their education. We help them a lot with their academics, but there is a huge experiential piece of education as well, and students today need both. They need to be aware and have access to both of those types of learning.
Tripod: What can be done with someone like me. Like a lot of our readers, I'm finished with college, and I'm sure I didn't do many of the things you described in the book. Is it too late for me?
CC: I actually didn't do many of the things I described in the book. I mean, I actually did some of them, but some of the things in the book came from writing this book when I was 25. I had already been out of school for four years and I knew many things that weren't apparent to me as a freshman. So I think its definitely not a problem if you didn't do some of the things. I think people need to focus on what they did do. If there are real reasons why some other stuff didn't happen, that's OK. Nobody has a perfect college experience -- that's not the point of it.
Tripod: Tell me the story of how you wrote the book, because I think it's really interesting that you wrote it when you were 25.
CC: OK -- it's an interesting story. I had been going out with someone for a couple years, broke up with the person, and took a trip to Greece with a bunch of books and one of my really good friends. On one of the islands in Greece, I read the book "What Color is Your Parachute" and I thought it was a fabulous book. At the time I was feeling sort of bummed out, and also I was felling at an impasse career wise. I had been a marketing manager for a couple years and I really was asking all the big questions about my life -- my purpose, what was I doing, etc. I read this book and I thought, "This is a great book. Freshman need a book like this, but one which is much more suited to the kinds of questions and issues that they struggle with as 18 year olds." "Your Parachute..." is a fabulous book, but you have to have a real sense of discipline to get through it. It's for more mature audiences; for seniors, or people who are career changers. So I came home and wrote the author. I told him that he was my life hero and that someday I wanted to do as much good as he done through his book. I told him that he really had been an inspiration to me. He wrote me back a lovely letter saying, write your book and I think it will be terrific. And I went out I got a computer. I didn't tell anybody at work that I was writing this book. At the time I was really not happy work wise, but I wasn't at a point where I knew what I was going to do about it. So this was sort of a little guiding light distraction. I worked on it all day on Saturdays, and probably two nights a week for about eight or nine months. It really gave me so much purpose and such of a sense of happiness to just have something I really believed in, at a time when I wasn't sure if I believed in my work or if I felt good about some of the other things that were going on in my life.
Tripod: And you did this at a time when you weren't sure if you would find a publisher?
CC: Absolutely. I had no clue. I thought, "Look. You believe in this, you want to do this. Worry about that later." Actually, it was a very difficult process to get it published. Because I worked for Prentice Hall, I thought I'd send this to Simon & Schuster. Of course, the guy there was like, "What is this? Who is this?" He had zero interest. Then I sent my manuscript to maybe 35 agents. Maybe four of them called me back. Then one of them, this woman who had done some books in the college market, she picked it up and she's the one who got the people at Farrar Strauss. They were wonderful. I have had the same editor there ever since, and she is tremendous. I feel very fortunate, because I know that people frequently don't have such positive experiences. Knowing publishing from the inside I know good books can get published, but not necessarily ever get out there in the market. I feel really fortunate that they did a great job with it.
Tripod: What printing is it in?
CC: Well it just was revised but they did five printings of the first edition so it was really nice. Very, very, nice.
Tripod: Tell me about your job and the current projects you're working on.
CC: OK, the job that I have now. This is sort of an interesting story too. I was the director of marketing for the last six years at Prentice Hall. And about five years ago I started a non-profit organization called Life Skills. We do programs in high school to help introduce students to careers from all different backgrounds. I continued to have this need to help students, but I didn't feel that it was really able to be developed on my job. What's happened the last couple years, is that I felt like I was working my tail off at Prentice Hall coming home on the weekends and doing all this non-profit work and I didn't feel like a had a lot of other time for the other things that I wanted to do. So last year I told the people at Prentice Hall that I clearly felt that my mission in life was to work with students and to really spend time with them. I asked them if they would entertain a job like that for me at Prentice Hall. I said, if they weren't able to do that, then I would consider leaving for somewhere else. They said, write a business plan telling us what you would want to do. I had started a magazine a couple years before called "The Keys to Success," so obviously the magazine was one part of it. It also included doing workshops and giving seminars to students, and working with faculty so that they could set up these classes. Another aspect involved looking at students of different ages, to develop books and resources which cater to the wide variety of issues they face. I was really fortunate that I had been at Prentice Hall so long. I have such funky and weird ideas anyway and I happened to at least have a track record with my weird stuff, so they said, alright, lets let her do this. So now I'm the director of student programs and I get to speak all day on the campuses, and give speeches, and work with students. It's been really wonderful. We started an internship program. Prentice Hall is part of Viacom, so we set up all these internships among the different Viacom companies. People can work at MTV or Comedy Central or Simon & Schuster. We also ran a summer publishing program this summer and we hired people all over the country. That way people who couldn't afford it, didn't have to go to New York or Chicago.
Tripod: And live on intern wages...
CC: Exactly, and that was my problem I came to New York and had to waitress at Orloff's. We thought, lets create some opportunities for those who can't travel -- who can't afford to travel -- so it was neat. We sent them these self contained projects and they worked with editors who were their mentors. They literally went through and reviewed our book and the competing books and made suggestions on how to improve them. They were able to work with the authors, and it was neat. It really was great. Those are the kinds of things that I do in my job now. I just feel very fortunate that I'm able to do that kind of thing. We have an online program as well, called College On-line. Every Wednesday from 4-5pm in the Coliseum [on America Online] we feature different people.
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