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Guy Kawasaki
interviewed by Emma Taylor on March 10, 1996
"I like to compete against larger organizations that should crush me. It's in my DNA. I like to do battle."
Guy Kawasaki is an Apple Fellow and author of "How to Drive Your Competition Crazy: Creating Distruption for Fun and Profit." Even if you're not in business (and have no intention of ever being in business) this book is a hilarious read, jam-packed with anecdotes -- from a small-town pizza marketing war to the IBM-Apple story. Here, Guy discusses his marketing theories, gives advice on for the job hunter, and explains why his wife is always right.
Tripod: Could you tell me a little about your background -- how did you learn to drive your competition crazy?
GK: I have a BA in Psychology from Stanford and an MBA from UCLA -- please don't hold the MBA against me. I started in the jewelry business and went to computers -- go figure. In my business career, I've competed with IBM, Ashton-Tate, and Microsoft. Clearly there's a pattern -- I like to compete against larger organizations that should crush me. It's in my DNA. I like to do battle.
Tripod: Could you define "guerrilla marketing" as you use it?
GK: Jay Conrad Levinson coined the term, so it would be unethical for me to define it because its really his term. I stake a claim to gorilla marketing, however: the process of driving gorillas crazy.
Tripod: Is guerrilla marketing a school of thought that can be taught, or is it part of the entrepreneur mindset?
GK: It is a school of thought that can be learned by anyone from manager to minister. The key ingredient is a restless and relentless pursuit of better ways to do things. Stated another way, you have to love to improve the lives of your customers -- so much so that you are willing to do battle against mediocrity and the status quo.
Tripod: Is it for everyone -- surely guerrilla tactics only work if enough people are playing by the old rules?
GK: Don't worry. At any given time, 90% of the people are playing by the old rules. Usually, these are the easiest people to drive crazy because they aren't expecting it. The other 10% who are as aggressive as you are represent a much greater danger. Thus, you should pick your enemies very carefully. My recommendation is you go after the big, dumb, rich companies.
Tripod: For someone starting their own business, what's the most important first step in being a guerrilla?
GK: 80% of the battle is creating a great product or service. The other 80% is hard work and luck.
Tripod: What do you think is the most common mistake made by Davids facing their Goliaths?
GK: Ironically, that they concentrated on doing battle with David as opposed to focusing on their customers. The best way to drive your competition crazy is to succeed, and the best way to succeed is to focus on your customers. You need never raise a slingshot to defeat a David this way.
Tripod: I fought the temptation to read part four first -- is there a danger in a business trying to apply these tactics -- "pushing the envelope" -- before going through the know yourself/know your customer/know your enemy process?
GK: There is a great danger in pushing the envelope first. It will probably lead to driving yourself crazy or getting yourself "killed." The success of guerrilla tactics depends on a strong foundation -- not off-the-wall, kamikaze tactics. Again, focus on your customer, not the competition. If you do this, everything else will fall into place.
Tripod: Has anyone ever taken your advice to heart, got into trouble, then blamed you?
GK: Nope. And let's not give anyone the idea that they can blame me for their troubles.
Tripod: You strike an interesting balance between irreverence and ethics, a balance many people have trouble finding. What's your view on business ethics? How can you tell the difference between "ethics," and "rules that were made to be broken"?
GK: The salient distinction is between ethics and convention. It's not okay to deface ethics. It is okay to defy convention. I've found two rules that handle 99% of the situations: First, the golden rule really works. Second, ask you wife what she thinks.
Tripod: What if you're a woman entrepreneur? Should you ask your husband?
GK: Nope, then you should ask another woman friend.
Tripod: Isn't this sexist?
GK: This isn't my problem. I just call 'em as I see 'em.
Tripod: What's your favorite story from the Apple-drives-IBM-crazy era?
GK: In a sense, we drove IBM so crazy that Apple and IBM are now partners in several areas. Who would have figured this? It helps that we have a common, magnificent enemy called Microsoft.
Tripod: Should a job seeker consider other people seeking the same job as competition -- to drive crazy? How can a job seeker apply your philosophy to his job search?
GK: A job seeker should not consider other people competition. This would be focusing on the wrong target. Instead, he or she should focus on the customer -- that is, the potential employer. If you think about it, what can one prospect do to another anyway? And what potential employer in its right ethical mind would hire such a person?
Tripod: About driving your boss crazy -- you use an interview with a bull fighter as inspiration. Would you say that, unless you own your own company, your "career" is a separate entity from your company?
GK: I'd hate to go this far. While the concept of the company as a family to with mutual, permanent loyalty is fading, I'm not so cynical as to concede that it's every person for himself or herself. A good ethical compass is to act as you would want employees to act if it were your company.
Tripod: The latest buzzword in taking care of your own career is "lifelong learning." How does this relate to career guerrilla tactics?
GK: I've never heard that buzzword before. Sounds like a slam dunk in a competitive world. There is no rationale for stopping the learning process at any time.
Tripod: You draw on your experience with Apple as the upstart who drove IBM crazy. What happened to Apple -- did they become a complacent insider?
GK: We didn't become complacent -- we lost focus. We stopped focusing on the customer. We drifted into markets where we could not uniquely provide goods and services of great value to the customer. Apple's greatest competition is not Microsoft -- it's Apple itself.
Tripod: Is it too late for Apple now -- is it really "rotten" as sensationalist headlines claim? What's your prediction -- or prescription -- for Apple?
GK: Things are never as good or bad for Apple as they seem. The core of Apple, no pun intended, is solid. We are in the business of improving people's creativity and productivity. Not driving Microsoft crazy -- if we take good care of our customers, we'll be successful and drive Microsoft plenty crazy.
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